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FINALLY decided to move the 66 into the garage and see whats what.

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Nothing funky on the outside, input and output shafts solid, no wiggle or play out of the norm.  If you spin the input its smooth and then clunk, then smooth, clunk, smooth clunk.  

Further teardown shows the culprit...and honestly, not one of the many theories i concocted since the moment in went grrrrRRRRRRRRRRRCRUNCHCRUNCHCRUNCH back in Sept was even remotely close.  

I was cruising in 5th gear doing roughly 70 or so and had been for many leisurely hours.  The trans developed some whine that was only really noticeable when passing a large vehicle maybe 2 hours prior if even but it never got worse and wasnt noticeable inside the car at all.  Then instantly the whine got piercingly loud and high pitched and I thought it was my radio going bonkers as its done it before and made the same noise but turning it down did nothing lol.  The whine was  quickly replaced by a loud GRRRRR.  It kinda went away when I shifted down to 4th making me think it was 5th that had scattered but when we were trying to go through the gears again to get into the parking lot it was evident that it wasnt 5th that was destroyed.  Fast forward to it being home, I would fire it up to let it warm up and keep it happy from sitting so long and so long as I have my foot on the clutch pedal everything sounds great.  Let the clutch out and the CRUNCH CRUNCH CRUNCH starts banging away.

Well heres the final verdict...

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Im going to dig a little deeper and look a little closer but it appears that the 1:1 (4th) gear is the only obvious damage that I can find.  Everything else is happy as can be.  Im confused as can be.  Dont think Ive ever seen a mangled main gear like that.  So now the question thats been mulling through my head this time.  1) Was something broken or weak all along?  It was a used trans so anythings possible OR 2) What did I screw up when putting it all back together?  Everything checked out perfect as far as measurements, tolerances, end play etc and acted like it was supposed to up to that point.  Plenty of proper fluid, no bad noises, shifted great yadda yadda.  

Not sure where I want go from here.  Cut my loses and try to source something done by a Pro, swap to a better trans all together or order up what I broke and try again.  Its all spensive but I wanna get this thing back to where I can rely on it again and not stress that shes gonna strand us again down the road.

Matt

 

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The broken teeth are every gear except 4th.  Call that gear the input shaft.   They take a beating, too bad the cluster gear is chipped up too.  What does an input and a cluster cost?   Better check bearings for metal too.

66sprint6 likes this

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Yeah if she comes apart I will likely replace the bearings or clean em spotless and check em over.  I just wonder how that happened cruising down the road.  Makes me wonder what else was off to cause that or if it was just flawed/weak in the first place being that I did buy it all used.

Input and clusters arent cheap from what I remember back when I was putting this together.  I paid roughly the same for this T5Z as I would have an input and cluster to fix the old WCT5.

First one grenaded due to wheel hop.  100% on me.  This one...only God knows right now.  Surely a decent T5Z can put up with 272 of Disney's finest trained horse ponies right!?!?!?!? 

:lol:

Matt

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17 minutes ago, JohnC said:

Man, that sucks! 

I know trans whose all too well. 

Auto swap? :duck: 

This car used to be a C4 car, not going back.  Till my knees say otherwise I wanna shift this one on my own thanks LOL

11 minutes ago, Disney said:

parts aren't too bad for it. look up Allstate gear. I just started a Muncie for Moody today using parts from them.

WOW your not kidding they are priced WAY WAY lower than what I was seeing before.  I believe ive heard that Astro is good too.  Now to research the correct gearing this Z trans had in it and see if they got it!  Thanks.

Matt

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If the input can turn the the cluster without slipping on those broken teeth, I'd shift into the desired gear and turn the input X times until the output makes 10 revolutions.  If Disney is right, your input would make 29.5 turns.

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Yeah I counted teeth when I pulled the rest of the trans apart and have the parts I need sorted out.  Once a little extra cash frees up Ill be placing an order.  Everything else cleaned up super nice and looks like the major fragments made it to the magnet at the bottom of the case before getting eaten up by the rest of the gears.  

My only wonder now is if it was a fluke, used parts that were junk or if something was off somewhere to cause the input and cluster to bind and become unhappy and if so, will it inevitably munch the new parts up as well?  I mean, I was cruising in 5th super easy for HOURS and then it decided to go.  Ide like to believe it was just a weak part and since I got it used, I have no idea how badly abused it was but you know how it is, I rebuilt it myself and checked everything best I could so its always on the back of my mind...what did I goof up?

When new parts show Ill do like last time and triple check everything to make sure its in spec and see how it goes.  If it happens again Ill have my answer LOL

Matt

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On 4/5/2020 at 10:05 PM, 66sprint6 said:

I was cruising in 5th gear doing roughly 70 or so and had been for many leisurely hours.  The trans developed some whine that was only really noticeable when passing a large vehicle maybe 2 hours prior if even but it never got worse and wasnt noticeable inside the car at all.  Then instantly the whine got piercingly loud and high pitched and I thought it was my radio going bonkers as its done it before and made the same noise but turning it down did nothing lol.  The whine was  quickly replaced by a loud GRRRRR. 

 

 

21 hours ago, 66sprint6 said:

 

My only wonder now is if it was a fluke, used parts that were junk or if something was off somewhere to cause the input and cluster to bind and become unhappy and if so, will it inevitably munch the new parts up as well? 

I've seen lots of broken teeth over the years, and the looks of yours are of a random tooth failure. But the whining for "hours" is the only thing that makes me begin to question if there could be a cause other than a weak tooth.  I wonder about your bearings....if they were worn or something allowing the gears to ride farther apart than they should have been.  If the bearings are not sloppy, I'd say a random tooth fractured and a part of it broke off.  That caused a whine, and eventual failure of the rest of that tooth.  And THAT lead to near instant carnage! 

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50 minutes ago, Ashley P said:

 

I've seen lots of broken teeth over the years, and the looks of yours are of a random tooth failure. But the whining for "hours" is the only thing that makes me begin to question if there could be a cause other than a weak tooth.  I wonder about your bearings....if they were worn or something allowing the gears to ride farther apart than they should have been.  If the bearings are not sloppy, I'd say a random tooth fractured and a part of it broke off.  That caused a whine, and eventual failure of the rest of that tooth.  And THAT lead to near instant carnage! 

Looking at the parts and thinking back to when it happened gives me some thoughts.  The gear on the cluster is damaged every tooth but only just a bit in the front edge of the gear.  Wonder if whatever caused that caused the initial whine.  Then something bigger gave and caused the LOUD whine that got us to pull over.  I actually shifted down into 4th at that point and rode it out to the exit.  Everything sounded ok downshifting to slow at the end of the off ramp so I figured 5th was dead and since its isolated in the tail shaft, we will just back road it using 1-4 and be good.  When starting from that stop sign is where the nasty noise started so that's likely when the inputs gear fragged. 

I had just put all new bearings all around so I dunno.  Hell I even had the billet cluster support to help stiffen things up so I'm leaning towards random failure as well.  I look forward to putting it all back together tho and seeing how it goes.

Matt

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Sounds like a bearing went bad. As you drove it longer it went from small particles to larger and eventually got big enough to take out maybe another bearing, or the suspect bearing cage, then you had large enough debris to kill a gear.

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I repaired a large diff in a C50 dump truck.  It's a larger version of a 9" Ford.  The pinion was so loose that it rode on the outer portion of the ring gear teeth.   Every tooth had a hairline crack at that end.

I'd want to see damage similar to that and loose bearings to conclude that bearings caused it. 

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Ive quickly looked over each bearing on the cluster, main and input shafts and they all APPEAR to be minty still and were pressed on new by yours truly when I redid it all.  Im going to go over them with a fine toothed comb later on, not only to see if that was the cause for my noise but also to see what needs to be replaced and what can be reused.  The races all looked and felt perfect in the case.

Matt

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Been way more than a little while BUT...

20210705_125003.jpgCl

Cliffs notes, new input shaft, cluster gear, (good) bearings all around, new bearing retainer, polished both shift shafts and shimmed to PROPER specs. 

I never really did figure out what caused the issue (tho I now have a solid thought...more on that later) but I noticed one bearing was kinda wrecked so after a couple consultations with Disney I went ahead and ordered up all new Timken tapered bearings and races to replace the cheaper bearings that I had in it originally.  I was able to get the input shaft super quick but the correct counter gear took months to show up and I completely lost momentum and interest.  It all finally showed and sat on my bench for a bit and I finally decided to clean up a spot on the bench and get to work.  Took my time, cleaned everything the best I could and made sure there wasnt anything else noticeably out of place or damaged and made extra certain to get everything within spec.  I ordered a new bearing retainer for the input shaft as mine had the slightest bit of wear to it that made the throwout bearing have a small hiccup when sliding it along.  Tossed it in with the same shim that came out of the other one and noticed quite a bit of play which made me pause.  I put the old retainer back on and it was identical.  Did some research and realized that I very well may have been the reason this thing came apart all along.  To the best of my rememberance, I reused the bearing retainer and shim from the old T5 which was not a Z and had needle bearings in the input shaft rather than a race and tapered bearing.  I either 1) had some endplay which was OK for a normal T5 but is a NO-NO for a Z or 2) Whoever rebuilt it originally didnt press the bearings on fully somewhere on the mainshaft and it fooled me into thinking I had 0 endplay and I went with it.  Both are plausible but my brain is fairly convinced #1 is the right answer.

Either way, I talked over my measurements and got a plan of attack/bit of confidence from Disney and shimmed everything to as near perfection as I can get it and I now believe that it is correct and ready to go.  Only way to find out is to get the car in the air and get it under there!

Matt

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2 hours ago, 66sprint6 said:

Been way more than a little while BUT...

20210705_125003.jpgCl

Cliffs notes, new input shaft, cluster gear, (good) bearings all around, new bearing retainer, polished both shift shafts and shimmed to PROPER specs. 

I never really did figure out what caused the issue (tho I now have a solid thought...more on that later) but I noticed one bearing was kinda wrecked so after a couple consultations with Disney I went ahead and ordered up all new Timken tapered bearings and races to replace the cheaper bearings that I had in it originally.  I was able to get the input shaft super quick but the correct counter gear took months to show up and I completely lost momentum and interest.  It all finally showed and sat on my bench for a bit and I finally decided to clean up a spot on the bench and get to work.  Took my time, cleaned everything the best I could and made sure there wasnt anything else noticeably out of place or damaged and made extra certain to get everything within spec.  I ordered a new bearing retainer for the input shaft as mine had the slightest bit of wear to it that made the throwout bearing have a small hiccup when sliding it along.  Tossed it in with the same shim that came out of the other one and noticed quite a bit of play which made me pause.  I put the old retainer back on and it was identical.  Did some research and realized that I very well may have been the reason this thing came apart all along.  To the best of my rememberance, I reused the bearing retainer and shim from the old T5 which was not a Z and had needle bearings in the input shaft rather than a race and tapered bearing.  I either 1) had some endplay which was OK for a normal T5 but is a NO-NO for a Z or 2) Whoever rebuilt it originally didnt press the bearings on fully somewhere on the mainshaft and it fooled me into thinking I had 0 endplay and I went with it.  Both are plausible but my brain is fairly convinced #1 is the right answer.

Either way, I talked over my measurements and got a plan of attack/bit of confidence from Disney and shimmed everything to as near perfection as I can get it and I now believe that it is correct and ready to go.  Only way to find out is to get the car in the air and get it under there!

Matt

Heck yeah, get it done 

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